POLL recommendations on specific gun

[drbabs]

New to fresh water spearfishing. Im hoping some of the pros here will chime in and recommend some favorites.

Im looking for a inexpensive second gun to use for the following:

-20-40 ft water
- under $200 usd
-mostly fresh water, some salt
- 5 to 15 lb fish max *****STRIPED BASS SMALL CARP WALLEYE ****
- medium range shots in clear water (mostly) 15-30 ft visibility
- probably a single 16mm band and 6mm spear? ? ?
-'rather not have the ring for the line like my current spear
-not sure about the handle (mid is american, end is euro? pistol style?)

i know that the cost really limits our options here. But If everyone could give me just a quick vote here on what you would recommend- I would surely appreciate it.

thanks!

[blaiz]

I think a little more information might help.

What is the water clarity where you are diving? 5-10ft, 10-20,20-40, 40+?(very important for sizing a gun)

What is your target species? Im a virgin to freshwater spearing but I have heard that those big carp need some punch!

Do you like a rear handle? midhandle?

When anyone asks about a good gun and have a price restriction the first brand I mention is Hammer Head Evolution. They are high quality guns with affordable prices. They are set up with an open muzzle so you have the option of powering up with a second band. it looks as if you might be in Palau? if so shipping is probably going to be a determining factor.

Also Rabtech, Rob Allen, Omer, Beuchat, all these manufacturers have affordable guns.

Well... back on topic, I think the first thing you need to find out is what size of gun your going to need. Shorter guns (55cm-75cm) are great for lower vis. The clearer the water gets the longer your gun needs to be (75cm-110cm). I dive in hawaii where the water is typically 40-100ft of visibility. Most people get jealous when I say that but you must realize that clear water adds a lot more to the spearing equation. you have a lot harder time getting close to fish in clear water. I use a 110cm riffe and would not go smaller than that. In fact there are many occasions that I wish I had a longer gun.

Hope this helps a bit. Maybe Whopperhead and his boys will chime in. They seem to be the freshwater experts!

[drbabs]

BLAIZ!
man, thanks for such a quick reply. I think the vis is about 15-30 ft. Im not sure about the grips - i understand that having it between the end and midway (3/4 grip?) is nice for pivot and quick aiming- what are the advantages of the rear handle?
The biggest fish i'll be hitting will be about 15 lbs- even the carp dont get too big here.
Hey, im really not sure about the size of the gun- I was hoping to get some tips from the pros about that. 100cm seems pretty average, right?
Also, i thought that and rob allen and omer were more expensive brands?
Im no longer in palau- just moved back to the states.

(i edited the original post so people that didnt want to spend too long, could see the questions and facts and just post a quick reply)

[blaiz]

If you are in the states I would recomend Hammerhead evolution. If the vis is 15-30 feet I think a 90 or a 100 would be very suitable. Probably more like the 90. like I said before these guns are affordable and very well made.

As far as the rear handle vs. mid its all personal preference really. With a shorter gun like a 90 or 100 I dont think its really that critical weather its a rear handle or a forward handle. The low profile of euro guns makes them very easy to maneuver underwater. Plus with the rear handle you get that little bit of extra reach. And lastly I think that if you are going with the more affordable euro style guns the rear handle is the standard. Mid handles or forward handles are more predominant on wood guns. Wood guns add a bit more to the price tag.

Rob Allen and Omer make a few differnt guns. I believe the Omer Cayman (aluminum) is pretty affordable. once you start getting a little technicle like the cayman CF (carbon Fiber) or the Cayman HF ( Elipticle shaped barrel), thats when the prices go up quite a bit.

What every you do... dont go w/ JBL. I know the prices are appealing but the quality of the guns are... OK...im going to stop before I get myself in trouble.

[drbabs]

Blaiz,
great! thanks for the tips. What benefit does the mid handle have besides that you can pivot with it?

Oh, and ive been looking at the HH Evolution gun. Looks hot! I wonder how much is advertising hype, but at first glance that looks like a well thought, well engineered gun. I wish a local store carried them so i could give it a squeeze

How in the world can i tell whether a gun has an closed muzzle with that ring on the spear or an open muzzle with the line connected to a loop or doghouse?

can anyone else recommend a gun to fit my specific use (as I pointed out above).

Thanks all

[Jon]

What's you prey?

For panfish you want a small shaft- Euro gun is good for that. OF carp and other rough fish it doesn't matter how a big a hole you put in the side of them so it doesn't matter- pneumatic with a slider ring would certainly take out anything you want.

It sounds like you have a pretty clear lake that you're diving in so a mid handle wouldn't give you as much of an advantage- they really are nice in low vis as it allows you to use a longer shaft without all of it hanging off the front of your arm.

So far guns that I've had a bit of luck with include: Rob Allen (75cm), Riffe MTO ( custom wood equivalent), Mares Cyrano (great for rough fish but to big for panfish), Pole spear, Hawaiian sling (the current favorite), OMER (60-75cm).

I've owned other guns but some of them were just too long to use around here on a regular basis. I did meet a freediver from Arkansas who was using a 11cm, but he had big fish in a very clear, man made, lake that he was going after. Our lakes are very clear right now, but they will all green up in another month and we'll be playing hide and seek in the weeds once again until fall comes around to clean it up again.

I know that Fondueset had a Riffe MT0 he was looking to sell and that would be a very good choice.

One other thing to keep in mind is that guns to balance out as well in freshwater as they do in salt- the water density does make a difference and having something weighting down your wrist gets tiring after 6-8 hours in the water. The mid handles don't have this issue- at least mine doesn't.

Here's a few pics of the different guns local divers use.

Jon

[drbabs]

Jon,
Are you one of those crazy ice divers!? WI diving- thats awesome!
Hey, im after primarily striped bass in up to 30ft vis. I need a good gun thats going to be dead accurate, good to about 15-20 ft range, but not going to cave in my chest to load the thing (smaller spear?
What do you recommend for under 200? Ive been looking at a lot of great guns from omer, picasso, AB biller, hammerhead and Beauchert (sp?)

[Jon]

Anything you would use in the ocean in that vis will work in freshwater- maybe that means you can keep using the gun you already have?

I guess I would prefer a Eurogun with a single wrap and no more than two bands- one being preferred for quicker reloading. I really liked my R.A. for the size of shaft and the quick reloading that it offered. I also found it to be pretty accurate due to the rail. I ended up selling it because the 75Cm, that I owned, was just too muzzle heavy and became tiring after a few hours in the water. It was also harder to shoot at fish sneaking up behind my shoulder in the weeds- which my mid-handle does extremely well at.

This last weekend I had a chance to shoot a 90Cm OMER Cayman HF that belonged to ILDiver. It has been the ONLY rear handle gun that I have used that's neutral in freshwater. I don't know it if it's the gun, or just the length of the barrel, but it was a pleasure to shoot- and with your vis it wouldn't be too long.

We shoot 40 pound carp with just about anything made and they will all work-your bass shouldn't be any bigger than that. The big thing is how big a hole you want to put in the side of them? I like my pneumo for carp because it's the fastest, easiest to aim gun I've owned. I understand that they make a Mamba it for it that would increase my distance, but that's not needed for my local conditions. the Mamba kit would make it much easier to load than the standard Cyrano.

When it comes to panfish I don't want to ruin the meat and the fish aren't that big- under 2 pounds. That means a thin Euro shaft works out better.

I had great luck with the R.A. and the OMER's have worked for a number of people I know. I have to admit to being less than impressed with the Hammer Heads, but that could just be the problems that Whopperhead has had with his- anyone can have an off product in a large production run and they did offer to fix it for him.

The diver I met was using an OMER of some sort that was at least 110cm- can't remember for sure, but it was huge. I had a long wooden gun originally, but it was too long for the vis and I always ended up shooting it from my hip. I still managed to get more than a few fish with it, but it wasn't much fun for diving around here- would have been great for where you are. I've attached some pictures of the last time I used it so you can see why it didn't work out so well.

I also attached a shot of my catch from yesterday- which I did with my Hawaiian sling. Last shot is one from ice diving- which isn't as bad as it sounds IF you have the right wetsuit.

Sorry for the rambling post, but anything you would use in the ocean with that kind of vis would really work just as well for you there- tuna floats and 6 band guns aside.

Jon

[blaiz]

Originally Posted by drbabs

How in the world can i tell whether a gun has an closed muzzle with that ring on the spear or an open muzzle with the line connected to a loop or doghouse?

Most euro guns i.e. OMER, Beuchat, Rob Allen, Rabitech, and so on are going to come with a closed muzzle. They do not have a slide ring. The ones you usually find with the slide rings are the brands like JBL, Sea Hornet, or pneumatic guns. Closed muzzle usually means that there is a bridge that goes over the shaft which holds it down to the gun at the muzzle. The bands are most times threaded into each side of the muzzle (2 separate pieces as opposed to 1 continuous band) and have a metal wishbone.

An open muzzle (like found on most wood guns and the HH Evolutions) have no bridge. Instead the shooting line comes up the side of the shaft (from the back) wraps under a stainless pin or plate, around the shaft, down over the front of the muzzle, and back to the line release. In this set up the shooting line holds the shaft down to the gun.

Some will say that the standard euro gun (w/ closed muzzle) is easier and quicker to load. I have found that once you get used to loading the open muzzle it isnt a problem at all.

The picture Jon posted of the Riffe midhandle and the rabtech (i think) is a good one to compare the differences. You can see that they shoot the same shaft lengths but look how much reach you loose with the midhandle. Its an awesome set up for low viz. If you are diving in relatively clear water than you will understand how important that extra reach the euro gun w/ rear handle provides is.

[Newbie_spearo]

Not sure if jimdoe2you can get Rob allen guns but if so I recommend them 100%. I have a 100cm Caranx with 7mm shaft and single 20mm band and it's spot on, I have only missed a handfull of shots out of about 3 handfulls and thats because I'm still new and learning it all. What I do know is that the gun is accurate and powerfull with very little recoil. Send jim a pm coz if he can get the guns he'll sort you out with a good price as he looks afer the forum members no matter where you're from. Any rail gun should do the trick.

[TOOmas]

a 70cm Rob Allen is what I use in the lake, Jim sold it to me and his service has been outstanding. Just ordered some fins from him too and he has been very helpful, id send him a PM as i think he can get a variety of guns at somewhat of a discount.

Thomas

[drbabs]

Originally Posted by blaiz

Most euro guns i.e. OMER, Beuchat, Rob Allen, Rabitech, and so on are going to come with a closed muzzle. They do not have a slide ring. The ones you usually find with the slide rings are the brands like JBL, Sea Hornet, or pneumatic guns. Closed muzzle usually means that there is a bridge that goes over the shaft which holds it down to the gun at the muzzle. The bands are most times threaded into each side of the muzzle (2 separate pieces as opposed to 1 continuous band) and have a metal wishbone.

An open muzzle (like found on most wood guns and the HH Evolutions) have no bridge. Instead the shooting line comes up the side of the shaft (from the back) wraps under a stainless pin or plate, around the shaft, down over the front of the muzzle, and back to the line release. In this set up the shooting line holds the shaft down to the gun.

Some will say that the standard euro gun (w/ closed muzzle) is easier and quicker to load. I have found that once you get used to loading the open muzzle it isnt a problem at all.

The picture Jon posted of the Riffe midhandle and the rabtech (i think) is a good one to compare the differences. You can see that they shoot the same shaft lengths but look how much reach you loose with the midhandle. Its an awesome set up for low viz. If you are diving in relatively clear water than you will understand how important that extra reach the euro gun w/ rear handle provides is.

Blaiz,
this is exactly what my confusion was over. thanks for the great detailed description here.
I have shot open muzzle guns with the line that wraps around the spear to hold it on. This style seemed easier to load because I could just lay the spear on the top of the rail (as opposed to grabbing the end of the spear holding it way out, trying to feed it through the end)
I think i like the idea of a euro style gun and i believe that a 85-100cm gun would be about perfect (this is the size of the barrel, right? not the total length with spear).
OH- hey is there any tradeoff or differences between the seperate pieces-band or one continunous band? Power? accuracy?
This is a pretty big deal to me because the gun i have now is not too hard to load and has the dual single piece band. I cannot imagine if it were the loop style with wishbone. I must be a real wuss, when I shot a friends RA my wife laughed at me all week because of the 10 different bruises I had all over my chest!
mahalo

[Newbie_spearo]

If your wetsuit has a loading pad then it shouldn't be a problem, the only time I get bruises on my chest is when I'm not wearing my wetsuit. i have a rob allen tuna 130cm and a caranx 100cm and both are easy to load with a wetsuit on.

[blaiz]

Originally Posted by drbabs

OH- hey is there any tradeoff or differences between the seperate pieces-band or one continunous band? Power? accuracy?
This is a pretty big deal to me because the gun i have now is not too hard to load and has the dual single piece band. I cannot imagine if it were the loop style with wishbone. I must be a real wuss, when I shot a friends RA my wife laughed at me all week because of the 10 different bruises I had all over my chest!
mahalo

There are a few tradeoffs. One is the cost. If you have to buy new bands the multi-piece bands are a bit more expensive, if you have to replace the wishbone for any reason they are very expensive. You can make your own single piece+wishbone bands for probably 25% of the cost of a threaded band.

As far as power the multipiece bands are typically made with thicker rubber to compensate for power so not much of a trade off there except with an open muzzle you have the option of having multiple bands.

Another thing is that the metal wishbones can be harder and more dangerous to load. The spectra wishbones are much easier on your fingers.

As far as the bruises on your chest, if your suite does not have a loading pad you can always add one with some thicker neoprene, or as we do in hawaii (eh... just go Longs and buy one rubba slippa brah! bombay no more bruises!) just buy a rubber sandal and put it in your suite where you load your gun.

[drbabs]

blaiz, thanks for the great tip. Tried the slippa last week and that works great!