Can I teach myself Frenzel

[ADELENELYNCH]

I want to learn the Frenzel equalisation technique. Got some notes off the net but until I go for a freediving course, I'll have to learn it myself. Is it possible to do so? The notes says this is a difficult method to learn.

[jome]

I'd say most divers learn it by themselves. It's hard method to learn, but even harder to teach

It may require weeks or months of studying one's self, how everything in your mouth works and which affects what. Unless of course, you're one of the lucky ones who just learn it naturally and have always been doing it...

[ADELENELYNCH]

Any useful tips please?

[jome]

Well if I understood correctly, you are already familliar with "the fattah document". There aren't really any better advice than that.

If you haven't yet seen it, here's a link:
http://www.liquivision.ca/liquivisiondownloads.html

I don't know anyone who hasn't learned the Frenzel if they've done every exercise in that document carefully and really trained and dedicated to it.

Then again, I know plenty who have glanced at it, tried a few of them and said "Impossible! I've just got something wrong with my tubes!"...

So be sure to read it carefully and not give up after the first few inevitable failures. Patience and persictence are the key! Good luck, it really is worth the effort

[ADELENELYNCH]

Thanks Jome. I'll be patient with it and go through it step by step. Will keep you posted.

I'll be out at sea again this weekend! Can't wait!

[BennyB]

On the new Frenzel document there are some dead links to a couple of example vids - does anybody have those vids?

I'm convinced I can Frenzel properly, but getting a mouthful of air to stay in my mouth is another kettle of fish entirely. Well when I do get the air in I can't co-ordinate myself enough to keep it there while equalising, it seems to be one or the other. Better keep reading the documents and scouring the internet... it's annoying seeing as I do constant training about once a month so you don't get too much opportunity to practice. Anyway i've had my whinge....

[jome]

Benny, when I was struggling in the same phase, I eventually got past it with this "ummph" sound.

Damn it's hard to explain in text, but you make a sort of groan with your throat, which seals the epiglottis and just when the groan ends (throat is closed), you equalize. Making the noise and conscentrating on it helped me keep the air in my mouth in that critical moment. After doing that for a while, I noticed I don't need to produce the sound anymore, but I can control those muscles without it. And of course, after some time, the whole process is subconcious...

[DJones]

funny
I wouldn't have thought that some people couldn't do the Frenzel technique. It's just a matter of pushing air through the eustachian tubes by using the tongue
I'd like to learn the hands free technique but that seems a bit complicated.

[joe123321]

I have been trying to learn the frenzel for a while now, I can control the epiglottis, and toung piston and all that. I have done the soft palet stuff and I can wiggle something back their and it makes clicky sounds in my ear. I can do it and I think it is the soft palet but im not sure, it seems I can only move it all the way up or all the way down. cant get it in the middle. And I really cant tell if its going up or down. But Something is definately moving and clicking in there, earlier today I was sitting on the couch by my sister doing it and she could hear it lol. Anyway how do you tell if its moving up or down? is there anything else there that i could be wiggling? And how do you get it to stop half way?

thanks for any help.

-Joe

[Metridium]

Hi Joe,

I had similar problems getting things to work right. Eric Fattah's instructions on Frenzel are perfect for learning all the parts in your pipes and how to control them individually, but "putting it all together" (step 7) into a smooth action was a mechanical wreck for me. I kept exaggerating all the individual steps when I needed a much smoother motion.

The post copied below from another DB thread immediately set my problems straight for step #7. The formation of the palatal K sound was the key. Other sounds did not work for me.

David

http://forums.deeperblue.net/freediv...-step-7-a.html

Originally Posted by alein

First I've got to say that I'm a big fan of sucking bottles. However, I would recommend that you perform this exercise in a seated position, especially if you plan on doing more than four bottles worth.

Now, I'd like to get back to "Ng", "Guh", and other nonsense syllables that seem to resemble the Frenzel. A few attempts with each has convinced me that they are quite close to what I do to equalize, albeit with a significant difference, namely, that they are formed from voiced consonants ng and g. Voiced consonants are what the name implies: consonant sounds that involve using your voice. So b, d, and g are voiced, for example, while p, t, and k are their unvoiced equivalents.

Now the problem with making such sounds in order to equalize is that they require an open air passage from the nose all the way to the lungs (try saying "ng" with a closed epiglotis). This is okay near the surface, but will make equalizing at depth quite difficult.

Alternatively, I would propose you make something like a palatal k sound (this is how I first got Frenzel to work). I call it a k because that is the closest sound I can think of, but it is a sound created using the soft palate instead of the glotis. The general idea is that air is forced against a weakly closed palate, and then the palate is released. It generates a sound which resembles something a chronically congested person might make while trying to displace mucous from his soft palate back into his nose (I once had a habit of doing this). The epiglotis is closed, and most of the pressure is generated by the throat, with some pressure generated by the tongue. This method is possibly too effective at pushing air into the nose (on land I usually feel I have overequalized by doing this), but once you have the feel of it, you can perform the same maneuver without the disturbing explosive sound.

Just as a general comment, I think a big difficulty in teaching equalization is that you can't really feel where the air is moving inside your head. So it's very difficult to tell whether or not you're actually accomplishing anything by making this or that ridiculous face. Instead, I think methods which attempt to reduce the technique to a familiar activity is much more effective, since it won't rely as heavily on "aerosomatic" feedback.

-Adam

[TheDude]

To learn (and train) frenzel, you could try this exercise in the pool (I got it from my instructor few weeks ago). You need to know the theory on how frenzel works before:

Dive to the bottom on exhale, head down (this is important, as it requires you to push the air in the opposite direction it would go naturally). For the first tries a mild exhale is more than enough. When reaching the bottom (don't forget to equalize on the way), try to fill your mouth with air, and then try to push the air out through your nose (with a mask on). To do this you have to use the tongue, it just won't work by pushing the air from your lungs. You have to see bubbles coming out of your mask. Sounds easy, but you will see the first time you try, that only way to do it is relax and concentrate on what you do with the muscles in your mouth.

And don't forget to watch out for the position of your head (no looking up ), as you can easily damage your trachea on an exhale dive even in the pool. And don't spend too much time down there, just a few tries and head back to the surface. Having someone spotting you is necessary. Best is to do it in pair, one is down, the other one breathes up and watches.

[joe123321]

Thanks, I have everything i just cant get the sof palet into the neutral possision...I just noticed I can exhale and close the glottis so It feels like my lungs are trying to get air on their own, lots of negative pressure almost to the point of pain, no air. And like That I can equalize as easily as ever. So whats going on there?