The most fair and just static competition

[cebaztian]

Many people reflect on the fact that we have different lung volumes, thus we are not competing on equal terms.
But, says the big-lunged-guy, I have a bid body that needs a lot of oxygen. Right, but what about the skinny guys with big lungs.

Is there a way we could have a point system that takes into account both the lung volume AND bocy size.

Would this equation below be something that would reflect a fair static competition:

Body weight (kg)/VC(litre) x 12 = x

X = realized performance (seconds).

Example:
55 kg 4VC woman gets a factor of: 1.15
70 kg 6 VC person gets a factor of: 0.97
75 kg 8 VC person gets a factor of: 0.78

Woman does a 5 minute breathhold gets = 5.45 min.sec
Second person does 6.20 breathhold gets = 6.08 min.sec
Third big lung guy does 6.50 breathhold gets = 5.20 min.sec

Is this fair?

Sebastian
Sweden

PS. What will your PB give you?

[Ulf]

My personal best on full lungs would then be something like 5’10” and on FRC it would be more than 6’30”

[sanso]

The question doesn't make much sense for me. This is where life just isn't fair and that's that.

Thinking the thought to the end will lead it ad absurdum: You'll also have to take into account brain size (thinking uses oxygen, right?), age, BMI (fat uses less oxygen than muscle), eyesight (it's easier to drift off when You don't see sharp - or is it?), etc, etc, ... You get my point, I guess?

A big part of any sport is achieving things even though You might not have the ideal genetic predisposition. ( Anyone seen GATTACA? )

Is a runner less worthy of a prize because he has long legs?

[osusim]

Originally Posted by cebaztian

Is this fair?

No, the winner should be a person with worth results if the one is sexual, religious or national minority.
I guess everybody will declare VC as 2l, there is no way to prove otherwise.

[Jonta]

Competion in my opinion is about whos best(ofcourse fun is a very important thing too..)
And making the best worse dosent make any sense too me. Should they be punished for having bigger lungs and less weight. Im not sure but i think you can by traning make youre lungs bigger(to a certain point) and lose weight can everybody do.

[cebaztian]

My dear under water friends.

I am not trying to change anything - just trying to waste some time in your life by engaging you in a theoretical discussion.

Let me confront you with two facts and and one question:

Facts:
A body at rest uses approx 250 ml oxygen per minute.
One litre of air contains 210 ml of oxygen.

Question:
What if these STA top ranked athletes are the ones with the biggest lungs?

SEVERINSEN Stig Åvall DEN 8' 40''
NEUGEBAUER Wolfram GER 7' 53''
KINNUNEN Timo FIN 7' 45''
GUERRY Nicolas SUI 7' 34''
BOIVIE Peter SWE 7' 28''
VERBECK Deron USA 7' 28''
SHINOMIYA Ryuzo JPN 7' 21''
ČOLAK Goran CRO 7' 21''
BRYL Tomek POL 7' 15''
NITSCH Herbert AUT 7' 13''

If that is true, then STA is a competition in genetics.

Sebastian

[Bill]

Sebastion
I love your formula, my PB comes to 11:30. When's the official comp.

As a long time competitor who is cursed with a body that has about 5% of the magic muscle fiber, I sympathize with anyone trying to find a level playing field. Long time trials and statics are the only two competitions I've found where the 'natural athletes' actually have to train to beat those of us that didn't pick our parents carefully enough.

[chrismar]

I would be somewhere 4:41 due to biggish lungs and reasonably small build. If I do a full exhale dive, I would end up with about 6:35.

Dave Mullins (~85kg with ~15.5 litre lungs) would have a conversion factor of around 0.45, giving him a PB of about 3:25.

Taking some guesses, I would put Will Trubridge (~80kg and 2 litres on exhale) at about well over thirteen minutes on exhale, with someone like Eric Fattah probably clocking in beyond that.

From this I can tell you that clearly lung capacity is NOT the biggest limiting factor in statics and that the fairest static competition is the one where the longest breath-hold wins. Can you name any other sport where a genetic component is used for handicaps?

[perow1]

Originally Posted by Ulf

My personal best on full lungs would then be something like 5’10” and on FRC it would be more than 6’30”

Over 6.30 FRC breathhold is pretty impressive to me. The question is; Was it a long time ago you tried full lungs? Or are the PB´s set YEARS apart after only training FRC-apnea?

Static may have a lot to do with lung volume and the calculations are an interesting comparison on how much is due to your technique, dive response and basic metabolic rate.

On the other hand, a HUGE airsupply might make it harder to get a DR and we may need to compensate for a lot of factors to really get a compareable result...

[Ulf]

Originally Posted by chrismar

Can you name any other sport where a genetic component is used for handicaps?

Boxing and weightlifting?

[perow1]

SORRY, now i get it. It is AFTER the calculation. Stupid me!!

Calculated PB TLC: 7.20
Calculated PB FRC: 8.03

[Kars]

I think I do not get your formula, maybe get confused by the x's? At school I was tought that for -times- one could use the following symbols, x, . , *

72KG / 5.5 L x 12 = 157,1
So how do you arrive at the conversion factor?
My pb static is still 6'50".

On the concept of the fair static and perhabs competitions in general I had the following thoughts.

Like others have hinted, there could be made numerous divisions, classes created.
Age, weight, lungvolume etc. You could keep adding factors, until a person only is in a competition of one. Many freedivers recognise and respect their uniqueness and perceive the competitions as personal challanges, testing themselves in search of their unique way of selfimprovement.

For the spectator the question is not: "can this big lung lightweight women win of the the heavy weight big lung women?" But rather the simpler "which women is has the longest breathhold?"
Perhabs the following quote of Scott Adams describes a relation of simplicity to populairity:"You can never underestimate the stupidity of the general public."

I think simplicity is also needed to make the sport more popular. Our world champ, Stig Serverinsen's proposed simplification of the current AIDA Rules follows this insight.
Stig's proposed adaptations are very modest, and I think some further simplification is the way forward to a broader audience, more media attention.

Similar to Sebastien's Murat's pure CWNF competition, the 'Noseclip-only-competition' is also heading into the direction of less and easy to understand rules.

Thank you Sebastian for your question.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

[cebaztian]

Originally Posted by Kars

I think I do not get your formula, maybe get confused by the x's? At school I was tought that for -times- one could use the following symbols, x, . , *

72KG / 5.5 L x 12 = 157,1

WRONG your conversion factor 1.09.
1.09 x 410 seconds = 7.26 is your "bodylungfactor" PB

Originally Posted by Kars

Like others have hinted, there could be made numerous divisions, classes created.
Age, weight, lungvolume etc. You could keep adding factors, until a person only is in a competition of one.

Yes, that is what many of us feels, its about ourself and our own limitations.

Originally Posted by Kars

For the spectator the question is not: "can this big lung lightweight women win of the the heavy weight big lung women?"

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Kars

I think simplicity is also needed to make the sport more popular. Our world champ, Stig Serverinsen's proposed simplification of the current AIDA Rules follows this insight.

OR: Freedive in Dahab april 2008

Sebastian

[Kars]

Thank you Sebastian,

I think I interperped your formula in the wrong order,

I did 72 : 5,5 = 13,0909...
13,0909... * 12 = 157,1

Now I finally got the way you read your formula. When I put some brackeds arround the last part of the formula, I finally get your 1,09 BLF.

72 / (5,5*12) = 1,09

in Letters: M / (VC*12) = BLF

I better eat work out an rest more to gain more weight

Yes I ment your Freediving Dahab Competition when I spoke of 'Noseclip-only-competition'.
Maybe it's an idea to nominate Eric Fattah his CWNF's dives done currently in the Bahama's as the noseclip only CWNF World Record? Eric's methods appear to fall in line within your set of rules.

All the best,

Kars

[Lobo Marino]

Originally Posted by Ulf

Boxing and weightlifting?

in these sports people compete in separate categories ,small ' skinny or weak weight lifters don t get theoretical extra kilos added to their results when they compete.