Beyond 6:30 in static apnea

[Bill]

Thanks for the report Pete. Hope you're feeling better.
Bill

[laminar]

Went to the pool last night with Tyler and Eric. Still feeling a little under the weather.

Eric proposed that I try to do a short warm-up instead of going for max on the first attempt in order to try for a longer time on the second one, without getting depleted and having to recover for so long (if it is possible to fully recover).

Got in at around 8:30pm.

Breathe-up: none
1st static: 3'30", first contraction at 2'50" I was thinking at that point that it was going to be a bad day. My lungs didn't feel too good and it was disconcerting to get the contrations so early (relative to 1st statics with breathe-up).

Breathe-up: 2 minutes rest + 5 min of my usual pattern, but more like 2-3 breaths / 25-35 seconds hold per cycle
2nd static, max attempt: 6'49" (new pb!), first contraction at 3'55" for 2'54" of contractions (another pb)

What I wanted to try this time was being way more relaxed. Trying to use only my diaphragm to resist contractions and leaving the rest of my body out it. Usually I put my hands on the pool deck at around 5'30"--this time I didn't do that until just after 6'10" (I think).

I also packed to the max and it was almost painful to hold it in for the first four minutes. I let my cheeks bulge out with air until then.

I came up when (I think) I heard a change in my hearing. After every max static so far, my ears ring for about a minute afterwards. This time I'm pretty sure I became aware of the start of the ringing and that's when I came up. Because I remember clearly thinking at 6'45" when Eric gave the signal that I could make 7'00". But then the chimes started up and I wisely pulled up. If that's the case, it would make a great failsafe signal for competitions! Like an warning bell. And this time, my ears rang for less time than usual and not as strongly, meaning (I think) that I pulled up a little earlier than before.

Well, I am looking forward to Saturday...

Pete
Vancouver, BC

[derelictp]

Excellent Peter!!!!

I am inspired by your improvements....

[cebaztian]

I find this thread intresting since I once thought I would never pass 6 miuntes in static. Since then I have done that a few times and I find it intresting to try to understand the difference between a 5.30 breathhold and a 6.30 breathhold. It seems to be such tiny details that makes the difference - for the reader of this post I offer my latest breathhold that was monitored by a scientist. Thanks to that I got a lot of data of which I only understand a third - some of you might be able to interpret and use this data.

http://www.fridykning.se/freediving/features/7min.html

Sebastian /Sweden

[derelictp]

Thanks!!

Very interesting test.

The first I see is that o2 goes down faster at approx the same time that contractions starts.... Do you know if the first contraction comes before or after the 2:nd breakpoint of the o2-curve??

I will look more at it!!

[fpernett]

Thanks for sharing your data, with us.
For the high pH, and low PCO2, I think you use somekind of hyperventilating technique, that, and the packing, can explain the slower descent of Sat O2. And the relatively slow rising of pressure can be due to high intrathoracic pressure after lung packing.
Did the Dr. Andersson measure your lactic acid at 1' or 5' after the static?.

[efattah]

Data I picked up:

- Definitely hyperventilation (CO2 < 2.9 @ start)
- Too little bohr effect near end (CO2 <= 6.03 @ end)
- Insufficient body buffers (shown by contraction @ 4'10 or so despite extremely low CO2)
- Good splenic contraction during the apnea (delta HB >= 1.0g/dl)
- Good hypoxia tolerance (SaO2 46% @ end, etO2 about 3%)

All things considered, astounding times (6'43" , 7'04") given the relatively small VC (<7L)...

I really like the warm up style, one big set, huge break, then gentle warm up, go. Exactly what Laminar and I have been thinking of trying!


Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[thud]

How come the Oxygen Saturation chart says 29%, but the Just After column in the spreadsheet says O2 - 46.2? I see where the spreadsheet is the for 6:43 static. Did you really get down to 29% for the 7:04 static and remain conscious? If so that is incredible!
Drew

[derelictp]

Eric,

Maybe the contractions comes also from low pO2??

(..but Seb still has a saturation of approx 90% when the contractions starts so maybe not.)

...so you are probably right about the body buffers.

[efattah]

My guess was that the 29% was what the oximeter read, and I think it was a 1st generation oximeter. They are very inaccurate at low saturations. There's not much hope of staying conscious below SaO2 = 40%. On my ohmeda 3700 I once got to 11% without a samba, but on my next generation 3900P oximeter, 45% is almost always a samba.

It is true that low O2 causes contractions. This is related to your 'hypoxic ventilatory response.' In order to resist contractions until very late, you need:
- High CO2 tolerance
- Low hypoxic ventilatory response (HVR) (i.e. low O2 doesn't give you much urge to breathe)

IHT patterns are the best way to reduce your HVR.

Eric Fattah
BC, Canada

[Bill]

Sebastian
Thanks for sharing the info. Some of the comments are just as interesting. Unless there is a mistake in my calculations, six foot two and 154 pounds is slim by Hawaiin standards. Makes me wonder what the effect would be of dropping 15 kilos from my frame.
In case the observation (Vc<7) bothers you, think of my attempts using a Vc=5.3
Aloha
Bill

[cebaztian]

First of all - thanks for intresting comments it is educational.

BILL - Dont drop weight. I am a very slim guy but I am sure I could be better in static if I had 5 kilos extry with blood and muscles.

4.15 was the first significant contraction. VERY late for me. It was all in all an incredible day. My warm ups were the best ever. Usually get contractions after 1.30 in the first warm-up.

After 3 minutes pCO2 were 4.78
My VC was 6.3 during both apneas.

The oxygensaturation meter is NOT a cheap one - this scientist does publish in the best journals and must have accurate equipment. It was a slow steady drop without failure in reading down to 29% (Which occured 10 sec after breathing started - there is a delay).
And yes I was consious (well everything is relative). I opened my mouth and received a mouthpiece to blow in. But my first words afterwords where "there is LMC in my diaphragma" I felt it was "jumping". I have been consious down to 36 once or twice before (but with LMC).

FRANK: Lactic acid where measured RIGHT at termination of breathhold. 30 seconds later acid had risen to 1.1.

This was not a plan to rest for 2 hours between 6.43 and 7.04. They were drawing blood during 2 hours and then I wanted to do a breathhold with lots of hyperventilation. So I thought I did - but the CO2 were identical both max stats. I dont think the 7.04 was a better breathhold. I just pushed myself harder - taxing my body more.

I have a feeling my stamina doesnt allow more than one BIG apnea a day. Not even a big apnea the day after.

ERIC: What is the Bohr effect?

Sebastian /Sweden

[xsaul]

Hi guys,

Water Rat here. You guys crack me up!
I'm not really a world-class athlete, I don't have all that fancy equipment, I don't even understand all the above terminology.
My PB is still 6:40--after 27 years. Dunno if I'll ever repeat it--though I'd LOVE to BEAT it!!
Anyways--thanks for the tips--maybe someday I'll be hittin' the sevens.
Water Rat, who tries not to be TOO MUCH of a RAT.

[donmoore]

Sebastian,
Was the oximeter connected to the finger? If so you might find this interesting, I asked Kirk Krack about why my SaO2% was falling so much on my pulse/oximeter after I started breathing. He said, “Remember that blood flow is greatly increased to the brain as blood vessels are dilated, while the circulation to the finger is decreased (peripheral shunting).”

So to paraphrase, the brain in the presence of CO2 increases the blood flow to it, but restricts the flow to the fingers and other extremities. When we start breathing it will take longer for new O2 to reach the fingers than the brain due to continued vasoconstriction. Therefore the SaO2% reading drops further than it really is. Actually the SaO2% reading really is that low at the finger, but its higher in the brain. Kirk said that this is less of an issue when connecting to the ear lobe.
don

[thud]

Wasn’t the world record much less than 6’40” 27 years ago?
Drew