Advantages of FRC diving?

[laminar]

Originally Posted by TampaBrian

My pool goes to 8 feet, i'm not interested in diving any deeper either. I just want to increase my breath holding ability for recreational purposes. not interested in dynamic or anything, so what would everyone recommend for this? 6 months ago i could hit 4:00 however, i stopped training with tables because its just too cumbersome. Would FRC be better or static with no warmup on one 80% breath? OR..would i be better off just sticking to the tables?

Where do you dive recreationally? What depths, time, etc... Spearo or just for fun?

Dry breath hold training is in my view a separate discipline all together. Many things change in the water. In my view, always best to train in the water.

If you prefer dry training, then perhaps apnea walking, hiking or cycling (on a stationary bike) would be a better option than dry statics or tables. I haven't done dry breath holds for training in many years. Search this site for posts on those options (and articles, too) as there's been a lot written and discussed on the subject.

[TampaBrian]

i've been reading old posts for days, hours at a time...
i'm interested in the idea of fewer or no contractions, but i suppose i would need the diving reflex for that. Let me ask you this, if I start diving frc and only to 8 feet, will it do anything with the DR? Training tables i could do 4:00 but I hated the contractions...if I train FRC, can i train my body to get a relatively quick DR in 8 feet of water? Im no longer interested in apnea walking, but more really shallow or even dry, avoiding tables, I guess im just hoping i can frc train out of water and get a DR out of it, but..probably not eh?! I dive in a pool at home, 8 feet deep, used to pull 4 minutes out of water, could never get far in the water. I suppose just for fun, no spearo. Thanks for your replies by the way.
-Brian

[salibandy]

I think he means entertainment purposes.

[TampaBrian]

Originally Posted by salibandy

I think he means entertainment purposes.

Now that my friend, sounds more like an insult.

The truth is, I have a very bad back, which causes all of my muscles to tense up, including my diaphragm. The only relief I've had, allowing me to breath normally, sneeze without feeling like someone stabbed me in the back, yawn fully, etc., Is from the ability to be able to 1. Relax as much as freediving suggests, and 2. Exercize my diapragm. I live day in and day out with an intense amount of pain that no doctor or medicine can fix.
I'm not asking for a pity party, but i didn't ask to be insulted either so here's the truth.

I'm just looking for a less intense form or practice. The contractions I have seem to conflict with the progress I make holding my breath. Before, I was on a cycle of practicing tables for 5 days with 2 days of rest. Having contractions later and later in the hold has allowed my body to relax longer with a stretched diaphragm before the contractions conflicted.

My main interest was sparked from a post titled: "Static with no warm-up"
Then I heard about FRC. So, what I really want to know is: With practice, what is the best way to do a breathhold to build yourself up for longer holds, with less contractions? FRC sounds great but i wouldn't be stretching my diaphragm, where as static with no warm-up is still a deep breath and would. Which of these, if not both, would better allow fewer contractions over time?

I was just hoping to find some experienced opinions on the topic. If you don't mind, what are your suggestions on this? I'm not sure where else to go, being that my practice is not standard and i guess for medical reasons, i'm not likely to find other people using this method, nor a doctor who deals with back pain and breath holds at the same time. I respect everyone here and read these forums on the edge of my seat. I was just hoping to fit in with you, but with a different objective.

As for it being for entertainment purposes...the last time i held my breath out of water for that purpose was at about 12 years of age where my friends and i would see who could do it longer. We would reach 30 seconds and try and make it look like we were still holding while sneaking a bit of air. Never fooled anyone

Thanks for listening and I hope you can help me out a bit.
-Brian

[turtle]

Hi Brian,

Wouldn't bother with frc if you are not really going to be doing dynamics or going deep & all you are looking for are increased breath hold times.

Sorry to sound discouraging, but i don't think it'll be your best option.

f

ps. can see where salibandy's comment comes from, as having no interest in depth or even dynamics is very unusual on this forum. Hope your back condition improves.

[salibandy]

Apologies Brian, I meant you no harm. I merely assumed you were doing for party tricks. I should not have assumed at all.

Static without warmup will not help you, as it makes your contractions come earlier, though they are more tolerable.

EDIT: If you want your dive reflex to kick in, try immersing your face in cold water, preferably your eyes as well. Meaning, don't wear goggles.

[trux]

Brian, I am not sure if I understand well that you need to hold your breath for possibly long periods of time because it gives you some relief from the back pain. If it is so, and if you do it only dry, then probably the easiest way to delay the contractions would be hyperventilating prior the breath-hold. Doing it with oxygen would allow possibly even longer apneas, but it bears some additional risks, so you probably don't want to go there.

Normally I would not advise hyperventilating, and especially not if you hold the breath under water, but if it is used as a form of medical relief and only dry, then the disadvantages of hyperventilation are not that bad.

[Fondueset]

Brian,

If you are using apnea for pain relief it may be the benefits you are realizing result more from focus on breathing and deep relaxation. If so it may be worth your while to look into pranayama and/or Qigong.

[Shpongle]

With no relation maybe to freediving, I would suggest a Vipassana Course

Vipassana Meditation Website

It is offered world wide, for free. you are able to donate but only after the first course - if you find that it helped you.

Good day

[TampaBrian]

wow, thanks for your replies. So many new avenues i've never heard of. The cold water thing sounds interesting, would i have to be entirely emersed, or do you think perhaps a large bowl of cold water could help? Sounds dumb i know.. As for hyperventilating out of water, do you think thats still safe? Isn't a BO out of water still a bad bad thing, or not so much?

[TampaBrian]

one more question...
I was pretty sure I saw something about Eric Fattah's FRC diving experiences involving little or no contractions. Am I off track? Thats kinda what i'm going for although i understand the training would be more vigorous? I think what personal goal would be to do 3:00 with no contractions. I was 2:30 with none at one point doing breath-ups..so should I just go back to that kind of training, or is there some light at the end of the tunner for FRC? It probably sounds like im pushing it, but i'm just trying to understand it better. Also, don't get me wrong, I still like doing it in water, I love swimming and get much joy out of the freediving experience, just not much for depth; comfort-wise. The movie the abyss kinda ruined it for me!
-Brian

[Kars]

A bowl of cold water with just your face in will do Brian. It's the temperture difference of your bodytemperture and the water that helps to generate a powerfull diving response. The receptors are all over our faces.

On your back condition, it sounds really mysterous. I must confess that I couldn't really understand from your initial posts what your goal and motivation is. Being weary of those young -I want quick tricks- for big results now, I started to develop a suspicion.

I guess you've tried many ways of elevating those pains. Stories like these make me feel very fortunate there is not much wrong with me yet, knokking on wood.
Appart from having a distractions, have you tried (self) hypnosis for relaxation?
There are some yogi techniques to stretch the diafragm, have you tried any?
I've also heart of yogi exersizes in short breathing, meaning they try to have as little ventilation as possible not moving a leaf of paper hanging just before their nose and mouth. Breathing shallow trough the nose laying in water helps me to relax me and preapair for that 1 big static I do without any breathholding in my preperation.

Warm water also helps to prevent contracions, 34 c I like.
Also a flexible diafragm allows easyer contractions.

If you got a knowledgeble and capeble buddy for safety you can try some diafragm stretches in warm water by doing frc and emptier dives to the pool bottom.

I find doing such dives to 5m (~16ft) with a divetime of 1'45" invokes a great DR, bloodshift, and makes me feel very relaxed, though also a bit tired in an energetic way. Usually I wear a suit fins and noseclip, to keep my muscles warm and flexible and to expose my face to the 26c water. with a gradual diminishing amounts of air I go down slow, eyes closed, sit at the bottem for 30s and very slowly fin up. Upon surfacing I breath in slowly, in parts, as I want to allow my lungs to shrink and expand gradually.
This exersize puts pressure on ribcage, diafragm, heart, throught, so maybe not your thing.

Love, courage and water!

Kars

[trux]

Well, it is always better telling what exactly you are looking for. That's why Laminar asked all those details. Your answers were quite confusing, and therefore it took a while before we could advise better.

In medical experiments, diving reflex is often triggered by a simulated face immersion - i.e. wet cold cloth (may contain a bag of ice). Using a bowl with cold water is a possibility too, but you lose the main advantage - the relative safety of dry apnea. For that reason, you should also use the wet cloth in such way that it does not inhibit breathing in case you black out. The area around eyes is allegedly the most important for the diving reflex. You do not need to cover your nose and mouth (or let an opening for them).

Blackout alone is not too bad if it happens during dry training. Although there are certain risks at dry apnea too, the likelihood of a fatal accident during wet apnea is much higher than when training dry. For limiting the risks, you should train dry in a safe position to avoid injury in case of BO or loss of motor control, and to minimize the possibility of choking with your own tongue. There is also certain chance of heart arrest at really bad blackouts, but I think such cases are very rare. AFAIK, only cases of heart arrest during sleep apnea are known, and those people usually already had some serious cardiac problems anyway. Having someone close to survey you, or check you out regularly during the training is not a bad idea though, if you want to push really hard while minimizing the risks.

[laminar]

Excellent suggestions everyone.

I think holding your breath and breathing in a controlled way can perhaps help your condition and bring you relaxation of the mind as well, which in turn can bring further relaxation.

Yoga (gentle and pranayama), QiGong, T'ai Ch'i and similar arts are obvious choices not to be overlooked.

I wonder if an inversion table might help (ie. spending several minutes inverted and relaxed allowing your spine to stretch out fully). Efattah has experience with inversion tables. Maybe others here do, too.

If relaxation, a sense of calm, and exercise/stretching/blood flow to your diaphragm and chest and back muscles are the primary goal of your practice, I would definitely recommend variations on lung volume as you hold the breath.

I'm not a huge fan of big inhalations with stretching or pack-stretching.

To "engage" your diaphragm, it helps to control it. Control the rate of inhalation and exhalation through the nose. Try a loud breath. Try a completely silent and noiseless breath. Your diaphragm will be required to do different things. Most of all if you practice this you'll better gain control of your diaphragm, which is very helpful for relaxing for longer during a breath hold and for health. This comes from pranayama variations.

Breathe through your nose in daily life as much as possible.

Holding your breath with a full inhale is not necessarily comfortable or relaxing. While you may feel better afterwards from the outward stretch, you could also benefit from the gentle inward stretch of a low volume hold. Tread cautiously with negative pressure breath holds and reverse packing (might hurt you?).

Most of all, if you view the act of holding your breath as a skill and not some innate ability, you will be able to improve the duration and the feeling you have when you are holding your breath. Whether you do it dry or in the pool (with a spotter standing next to you so you can relax even more) or with a bowl of water, if you focus on the process, one thing to focus on at a time, your breath hold will improve. Tables for the sake of C02 tolerance are perhaps the wrong end to approach this from, since they require some suffering in the contractions zone to improve.

I think if your goal is a series of relaxing and relaxing holds, you could try something like this:

1. Find a relaxed posture (on your back, sitting up, floating in the water in a sitting/standing position, or face down with a snorkel).

2. Focus on your breathing:
-tidal breathing for 2-4 minutes (minimal effort)
-hold your breath instinctively at a comfortable lung volume until you want to breathe (don't look at a watch)
-deep breathing (ie. full range of motion 1-2 minutes)
-you may find a short 10 second hold after the inhale feels best with this breathing pattern, otherwise you might get lightheaded/hyperventilated
-hold your breath instinctively at a comfortable lung volume until you want to breathe (don't look at a watch)
-tidal breathing again (2-4 minutes effort)
-hold your breath instinctively at a comfortable lung volume until you want to breathe (don't look at a watch)

3. Focus on body relaxation (from head to toe):
-repeat the set

4. Focus on relaxing diaphragm as you prolong the breath holds close to the contractions break point:
-repeat the set

5. Focus on lung volume and its effect on your body (blood pressure, feeling in chest, comfort, tension in surrounding muscles, etc...)
-repeat the set (Day 1 FRC, Day 2 full inhale, Day3 lower than FRC, etc...)
-time the breath holds if you wish, but resist temptation to push.

As you practice this way, feel free to adjust and modify to suit whatever feels best. Focusing on process will extend your breath holds almost without you noticing, especially for shorter holds. You can also change the focus to include things like mental state, body temperature, time of day, post exercise, etc...

You could also do these as "dives" in the pool. Use an extra weight to hang on to on the bottom so that to ascend you simple release the weight and maybe a gentle kick to surface. That way you can vary the lung volume without adding more weight to your belt - which I imagine might tweak your back negatively.

Hope this helps!

Peter

[TampaBrian]

Wow, thanks so much you two for that advice, I think it's exactly what i needed to hear. I have tried hypnosis(i have a couple blogs about what i've done on here). It really helps me more with the heart rate as far as i can tell. I'm going to spend some time getting comfortable with each type of hold, like you said, to get used to the different changes. I'll also work with a cold towel if that is all it takes, i'm very much about safety so thanks!
It's gonna take me a while to be able to take a quick deep breath(like you said, an audible breath). My diapragm has been spasming for a few months now and is almost unbearable to sneeze, or take that deep breath, even yawning is tough. I'll start stretching easily and incorporate some different relaxation methods to help. Thanks again folks, I can't thank you enough.
-Brian