Question on bouyancy and mucus

[m2b]

Definitely have been having some rather unusual dive sessions recently. Normally I don't even get in the water until August sometime so having had quite a few dive sessions already this year is VERY unusual.

In the past couple of sessions I have been trying out the idea of FRC diving. This, I believe, combined with the new, full body, wetsuit has reduced my bouyancy quite nicely. Last year I never negative bouyancy. Heck, if I was diving in 30-35 foot deep water I was always positive. I would just let myself float back to the surface and think nothing of it. No, I don't pack my lungs before I go under it was just simply how bouyant I was thanks to the equipment I was using.

In the past couple of sessions I have finally started to see negative bouyancy and trying to reprogram my mind to have to swim the surface is being the greatest challenge right now. It seems like my mind wants to take over and make me bail out long before I get down to 25 feet. I just can't get my mind comfortable with the idea. How do you guys do it? Their's plenty of air left when I come up but my mind just plays headgames on me and tries to make me think otherwise.

Well, this evening came and I headed out for the first since last Friday afternoon. Little did I know the interesting session that was looming before me.

I suited up before I left home so I could head straight for the water when I got to the lake. I walked on out to waist deep water and did the quick spit trick for keeping the self-equalizing goggles fog free. I put them on and put on the gloves and swam on out to the dock the kids use for jumping and diving off of during the summer months. I decided a couple of weeks ago that I would try to bike as much as possible to the lake this summer instead of driving. I knew to keep from always having to carry the weight from the weight belt on me when I rode my bicycle out I would try to find a place out there where I could stash it for the summer. I found a sweet location underneath the dive platform. I retrieved the weight and put it on and swam on out into the lake to the usual dive location right around the 'no wake zone'.

I breathed up for the first dive and I knew tonight I was going to be playing around some more with the negative bouyancy as well as BTV(BVT whichever it is). To this point I had had two or three dives in the past couple of times I have been out that I have actually been negatively bouyant. I head down, watching mostly whether my ears were equalizing using the swallowing concept or not. I still wouldn't say yes or no. Just too many things happening at once to be able to pay enough attention to just one thing and get any kind of true feedback. I made it down about 20 feet or so and I knew I was negatively bouyant and my mind took over and suckered me out. I bailed and headed back for the surface. I could see the bottom but my mind wasn't going to let me have any of it at all.

I breathe up for the second dive. This time I take a stroke or two at most once I break beneath the surface. I was negative at around 12 feet, maybe even closer to the surface than that. I make it down to within 6-8 feet of the bottom(25 feet) and I bail again. My mind is just playing all kinds of dirty tricks on me.

I breathe up again and go for the third dive. This time I decide to descend slowly and keep my eyes on the dive line and see if I could spot when I hit negative bouyancy. Boy, was I shocked to find myself sinking even though I was only six feet below the surface. Once again the mind took over and I probably once again only made it 20 feet or so before I bailed. Between the three dives I was probably below the surface a total of 1:30, if that long. I've held my breath in my bed a week or so ago for 3:30 and if someone else would have been holding the watch instead of me I probably would have made 4 minutes easily.

It seemed like the finish of this dive was rather unusual to say the least. I can't quite put my finger. It did seem like my mind was trying to really make me focus on equalizing down at the bottom point of the dive.

I got back up to the surface and started the breathe up for the next dive. Only I was noticing something really strange. I couldn't seem to breathe up like I normally should be able to. It was REALLY strange. I didn't like the feeling of it at all. Something wasn't right. I rolled up the dive line and headed into shallower water to see if by swimming around some it might change the situation any. I got into 18 foot deep water and tried breathing up again and it seemed like it was a litte better but still not normal. It seemed like I was short of breath and couldn't catch up with myself.

I decided to go for another dive and ended up bailing on it QUITE quickly. My mind was taking over in more ways than one.

Upon reaching the surface I said screw this I'm done. I rolled up the dive line, swam into the diving platform and dropped off the weight and swam on into the shore. I was noticing that it sounded like my breathing was raspy. Almost borderline asthmatic. I had childhood asthma in the fall months when I was a kid and would go out and play in the yard with my brother or sister but I haven't had any kinds of symptoms of it in 25 years.

I started changing clothes when I noticed something even more bizarre. The only place to change clothes, especially with other people around, was in the handicap accesible porta potty. I was in their changing and spit up a nice hacker. As I spit it into the toilet I noticed it looked like their was blood mixed in with the spit. This really had me thinking.

I walked outside to put on my shoes and had more phylm(sp?) in my throat. I spit it out, with another hacker, and once again very definite blood in the spit. As I walked out to the shore to get the sand out of the suit and the booties I hacked up another chunk. This time I spit it into my mind. I noticed the blood part seemed like it almost mucus kind of consistency, not normal blood, liquid, consistency.

This started to explain, partially, what I noticed in the water when I was having the harder time trying to breathe up. I still don't understand what happened to bring on the blood in the throat in the first place.

When I normally spit their was no blood. Blood only showed up when I tried to clear my throat. I've not had any kind of cold or anything like that in ages. There is nothing that makes any sense as to what or why this condition should have occured in the first place.

So both...is their a short cut for getting the mind out of the dive so I can have the dives I know I'm extremely capable of having, and what might have happened tonight and what steps should be taken to keep if from happening the future.

Ryan

[Mullins]

Sounds like mild lung squeeze, i.e. your chest is not flexible enough for those depths yet so blood vessels are rupturing. It often takes a while to get used to exhale diving and going straight down to 8m might be a bit much to begin with.

FRC diving can be safe when done properly but there are also plenty of ways to get it wrong and put yourself in a dangerous situation, possibly more so than with inhale diving. It's probably not a wise thing to be trying if you're on your own.

[m2b]

I wouldn't say I'm exhale diving. I don't take a full lung full of oxygen before I go under but I do inhale before I dive. I stop about halfway through a normal full inhale and then I go under. Like I said above, I believe I said it, I never have packed before diving. I still don't have the full concept of packing down...then again I haven't even tried to work on it. I'm probably only dropping lung volume by .5-1 liter at the most compared to what I always used to be doing. It's part of the reason why I'm still a little surprised about how close to neutral I am anymore. I think the new wetsuit has made a major difference in reducing the amount of bouyancy I have.

Ryan

[Mullins]

Sorry I thought you were doing FRC diving

If you're sinking from 2m on a nearly full inhale then you must be very heavily weighted. If your target depth is 10-12m then maybe weight yourself to be neutral at 5m and just sink the last couple of metres?

[m2b]

I'm about half inhale. I'm taking FRC slowly and just not breathing in as much as I normally would as the start up phase of FRC. On full inhale I am positively bouyant at 25 feet. As I saw tonight it really matters as to how much I breathe in before diving as to how quickly I reach neutral bouyancy. That last dive was the quickest I've seen neutral so far, by a long shot. I was a bit surprised to see myself dropping beside the dive line even though I was barely below the surface.

I think the fact of being negatively bouyant and seeing myself dropping, thanks to the dive line, is what is causing me to mentally react and bail out of the dive so quickly when their is no other reason for me to bail. I can't wait until my mind gets use to the idea of being negatively bouyant.

Ryan

[Mullins]

I don't think it's a great idea to dive FRC style (i.e. sink from the surface) but with full or partly full lungs. The whole point of FRC (which stands for Functional Residual Capacity, i.e. a passive exhale) is that you can afford to sink from the surface because you will have only a small buoyancy change on the way down. This is because there is not much gas in your lungs to compress. So, despite the free ride downwards you won't get a great deal heavier from about 10m onwards and the ascent won't be too difficult. However, if you take the same approach with inhale diving, then you will find yourself very heavy on the bottom because of the bigger volume change and the extra weight you needed in order to sink that early. Due to higher lung volume you also won't get the benefits of FRC (early & strong dive reflex, big blood shift) so you're getting the worst of both worlds.

The FRC gurus out there may have something to add but I would think you're better off doing proper FRC (passive exhale) dives to shallower depths rather than trying to combine the two dive styles and immediately hit your inhale depths. The symptoms you're getting definitely sound like they're pressure-related so you may have been exhaling more than you thought on at least one of those dives.

How deep do you go on inhale, and where are you neutral?

[Bill]

Please be careful. I've been having a similar problem for over six months. There are two divers that had problems like this during dives too shallow to make sense.

"make me focus on equalizing down at the bottom point of the dive."

"I couldn't seem to breathe up like I normally should be able to."

"it sounded like my breathing was raspy."

"blood mixed in with the spit."

"the blood part seemed like it almost mucus kind of consistency"

"Blood only showed up when I tried to clear my throat."

These are all signs of a lung or trachea squeeze. When you hacked up a 'good' one did it look like a fried egg with the yolk in the centre and the white (froth) around it?

[Stavros]

Hi Ryan,
it looks like you are trying to tackle too many things at the same time.
You are trying to short out your buoyancy, your equalization, proper breathup, relaxation and now you are throwing FRC (or partial inhale dives) in the mix...

I would say try learning to walk before you start running - Give yourself time to become comfortable in the water before you start experimenting with techniques like incomplete inhale.

My suggestion as it seems there is just too many things you need to short out (most of them are basic) - take a proper freediving course.


Cheers Stavros

PS1. What you had on your last dive was as Dave said lung squeeze.
PS2. Being negative at 3m? How did you manage that? Just how much weight do you have on?
PS3. Nowhere in your whole account of your last dive did you mention a diving partner - do you have one or were you diving alone? That is a definite no-no

[m2b]

>How deep do you go on inhale, and where are you neutral?

With all safety consideration intact, normally on full inhale, with the old wetsuit not the new one I'm using now, I was going 10m and I was still positively bouyant. A week or so ago with only the new wetsuit I was still positive on full inhale at 25 feet still with the five pounds on that I have been wearing. The problem I've had is I'm not using the best of wetsuits for going below thermocline which around here in mid summer is around 40 feet. Like I said in my initial question normally I don't even start diving until late August when the water temperature is already starting to cool down. This year has been a VERY strange difference from the norm. I figured I was going to be spending a lot time in the water this year, but not doing much freediving. So far it's all been freediving.

Due to boat traffic on most of the lakes I dive I also don't go very far from shore. Normally it takes me four to five minutes to go from shore out to where I dive. I don't wear fins and my dive line is nothing more than an inflatable arm band kids would use to stay afloat. I cut it in half and one half is used for the self equalizing googles, and the other half has nylon cord wrapped around marked every foot apart with a piece of threaded rod attached to act like a lightweight sinker that drops to the bottom of the lake. I normally swim out to the dive spot using breaststroke leg kicks with my arms out in front of me holding onto the dive line.

There is, at least here in the states, the usual no wake zones. I will swim out to the edge of the no wake zone, around 25 feet deep and dive there. Generally, not until after most of the boat traffic has left for the summer will I venture any further out into the lake and that is generally only another couple hundred of meters or so from shore. It normally 30-35 foot deep water I dive in then. I just don't feel comfortable diving with the boat traffic. My philosophy is simple. Boaters are drunk and I don't trust them to see anything other than what they want to see. I generally dive, time of day, when I least expect to see much in the way of boat traffic.

With the lack of good equipment tossed on top of the boat traffic it pretty much keeps in shallower water out of force, not because of ability. Since I'm above thermocline and don't feel comfortable getting away from the diving line I pretty much usually end up going down and coming straight back up and don't even try to spend any time down at the bottom. I have yet to see any fish while diving other than at shoreline. That could change my attitude towards bottom time but it hasn't had the opportunity yet.

Originally Posted by Bill

These are all signs of a lung or trachea squeeze. When you hacked up a 'good' one did it look like a fried egg with the yolk in the centre and the white (froth) around it?

Actually it looked more like a broken yet, like you was going to make an omelet, rather than a sunny side up egg. At least the one where I actually took a look at it in my hand instead of it ending up on the ground where I couldn't get a decent look at it.

Also my descent rate once I start dropping has been constant. I pretty much always set myself up and watch the dive line as I descend to try and get and idea of where I might be neutral at. Once I get below neutral the descent has been quite constant. It's the simple fact of descending and its not using my power that is causing the head games I'm going through right now.

Around where I live I have two dive shops within 35 minutes of my house. I've been in both of them and no one knows of anybody that does any freediving. Pretty much I have two options, dive solo or don't dive. I have a car with almost 300,000 miles on it and with gas at $4/gallon I'm not going to head for the RI coast to dive with the guys down there. I'm not into spearfishing like they are to start with. I dive locally so I pretty much have one choice, dive solo. I have gotten used over the years to doing things by myself and watching out for myself. I only press my limits as far as I feel comfortable pressing them. On full inhale I could spend a lot more bottom time without even thinking about but I won't let myself.

Ryan

[fcallagy]

Hi Ryan, i dont have much to add other than to echo what Stravos said about solo diving. i am in a similar situation to you often diving solo. But I do limit myself to 10m max and 1 min dive time. All this is done on inhale.

Imho frc is an advanced freediving technique one that i would like to try but only in secure safe surroundings. as well as the risk to life diving with a confident buddy that you trust will enhance your training as you will push it that bit more knowing that some one has your back if it all goes wrong.

Your origninal question was about getting the dive out of the mind and for me the only way to do that is when a buddy is present. If your mind is holding you back its doing it for a reason like the one above.
Stay safe and be around to enjoy the rest of that lake.

[Mullins]

Originally Posted by m2b

With all safety consideration intact, normally on full inhale, with the old wetsuit not the new one I'm using now, I was going 10m and I was still positively bouyant. Ryan

Usual practice is to choose what depth you want to be neutral at, and add or remove weight from your belt until you achieve this. At these sort of depths you'd want to be neutral at roughly half your target depth, so I'd suggest increasing the weight until you hit neutral buoyancy at 5m. This is for inhale diving. As the others say, it's a very good idea to get plenty of experience with inhale diving before you start playing around with FRC.

[m2b]

A very strange day indeed.

I decided to see if adding a layer to my wetsuit would make a difference today. Yes, I've been suffering ever since I started diving, no matter which wetsuit I've been wearing(no lube required to put it on), with diver rash. I decided to see if I might be able to help the situation by adding a thermal top and bottom underneath the wetsuit and as a result keep the neoprene from even touching my skin. At the same time I wanted to see if I could find out where I was bouyant at. I knew with the summertime water temperatures here in northern New England, my chances of diving without the wetsuit are pretty much a joke.

I headed on out for one of the other locations that I dive. Schools out and everybody is on vacation and I knew the lake I normally dive at would be loaded down with boats so I chose option two, no motor boats allowed.

I got in the water and wasn't expecting any equipment problems, boy was I wrong. It was the first time I can remember having trouble with the goggles taking on water and me not able to correct the problem so it wouldn't happen again. Always a first time for everything.

I headed out to 25 foot deep water and breathed up. I headed down slowly on the full inhale. I got down around 12 feet and strangely was noticing I was already negatively bouyant????? Something seemed really crazy. I ended up bailing when I hit the colder water temperatures around 18-20 feet. If I can only overcome the resistance...IF!

I took a couple more full inhale dives and I'm still noticing the same thing. I'm hitting bouyancy that I normally wouldn't be hitting under full inhale. I'm still not sure what was going on.

The goggles had been acting up since dive one and I finally said the heck with it and headed in for shore to drop off the dive line and see if I could get the seal on the goggles to better set so I wouldn't be taking on the water anymore. I headed back out and this time I decided to stay shallow and go for my first true exhale dives. Visibility on the lake is around 14 foot vertical, at least when watching the threaded rod on the bottom of the dive line as it descends to the bottom of the lake. I could easily see the bottom of the lake and I knew I was in 8-10 foot deep water.

The strange thing I noticed was I had no thought at all about trying exhale diving. Out in the deeper water where I normally dive half to full inhale, I end thinking about it all the time before I dive. In the shallower water...where I could see the bottom of the lake, I didn't think a thing about it.

After taking the last breath and then exhaling I tucked and headed down. Talk about a quick trip to the bottom. I was definitely negative at the bottom, with the 5 pound weight on. I was pretty much negative within two to three feet of the surface is my guess.

After another dive or two I decided to make the 45 second trip back into shore and lose the weight belt altogether and then retry the exhale dive again and see what would happen to the bouyancy.

After trying once again to get the goggles to seat correctly, YEAH RIGHT!, I headed back out and after quick breath up and exhale I dove down and found myself pretty much neutral, weirdly on my knees, at the bottom of the lake, err 8-10 feet beneath the surface.

The two things that were different compared to normal diving, while exhale diving today, no dive line, and I could see the bottom. Those was the most comfortable dives I've had thus far since I started diving. Normally in deeper water, where I can't see the bottom and where I have normally had a dive line to follow, I have a hard time making myself take the last breath and dive. In the shallower water today I didn't even think about exhaling and going under.

I did notice in the shallower water all the extra sediment/aquatic life(plants, etc) mixed in the water and it would always cause me to react/panic and head for the surface. I'm thinking the reason I feel so comfortable doing exhale dives is the fact I can see the bottom, unlike when I'm inhale/half inhale diving in deeper water.

I'm going to hopefully test this idea out tomorrow and see what happens. I'm really curious to answer some more of the mental hinderance questions that have been effecting my diving. I know they are all mental and nothing physical. The only thing has been trying to figure out where the problems come from in the first place. I know cold water temps is one big mental block for me, the other one is still out for debate.

Can not being able to see the bottom have that much of an influence on your willingness to go under???

Ryan

[bubbleless]

Hi Ryan

With regards to the "divers rash" - try using some "Lamisil Cream" ( Terbinafine ) if it is available in your part of the world - this is usually a treatment for Athletes foot, and is very good antifungal for getting rid of most divers rashes.

[m2b]

Thanks bubbleless,

I'll give that a shot. That's something I haven't seen posted on any of the other diver rash posts.

I really want to find out what is causing the rash to start with. Treating it is great, preventing it is SUPERB. I'm not sure if its the water or the wetsuit. The wetsuit I used to use I first used for whitewater kayaking and I never had any rash trouble with it. When I started freediving is when I started having the trouble. The new wetsuit, bought about a month ago was causing me trouble within the first couple dive sessions of the season.

That's why I decided to try to isolate myself from the wetsuit to see what would happen. Granted, I still have the rash from before so that was kinda working against me from the beginning.

Hopefully, long before the end of summer I'll have this crazy itch figured out.

Ryan

[bubbleless]

Hey Ryan

The beauty of Lamisil is it kills the bacteria on your skin that causes the rash, rather than some topical preparations which just sooth and heal the skin. This is assuming that it is that kind of infection - unfortunately it might be trial and error, but most of the divers I know that have complained of the rash and used Lamisil, have had it clear up pretty quick. My partner used to get it really bad every time he wore any one of his wet suits, now he no longer gets the rash at all.

All the best.