Dry apnea safety

[naiad]

Many of us, myself included, often do dry apnea training. There have been several threads asking if it is safe, but the fact remains that a lot of us do it. I thought it would be good to start a thread with some safety guidelines, as I have heard of many potentially serious accidents here on DB. These include falling on hard surfaces, blacking out while driving, giving relatives/friends a fright, fainting in public...

Here are some safety rules, please feel free to add more...

- Do not do any kind of apnea training while driving, operating machinery, crossing the road or any other potentially dangerous task. It just isn't worth the risk.

- Try not to scare friends or relatives, and at least warn them of your training. If they find you lying on the floor blue in the face, they will quite reasonably assume something is seriously wrong.

- Do not chew gum etc. while doing any kind of apnea training.

- Be careful when apnea walking, or doing any apnea in a standing or sitting position - there is probably a greater possibility of blackout/LMC, and the result of knocking yourself out on a concrete path could be serious.

- Do not do apnea training on gym equipment.

- Do not do training which causes unusual heart rates or arrythmia.

- Avoid extreme packing, and anything else which can cause injury.

- Never hold your breath alone in the bath. Of course that isn't dry training, but it just seems like a good place to put a reminder about it.

Hope this is useful.

Lucia

[demasoni]

Just my two cents here:

Collapsing due to a blackout while apneawalking on grass can still hurt and inflict damage, I've done it.

If at all possible apneawalk on the beach or some kind of sandy, softer surface. Either that or wear knee pads and a helmet - I'm serious!

[Marwan]

great thread! very good tips lucia/demasoni

[naiad]

Thanks for the input. Collapsing on any surface could inflict damage, and even on sand, there is the risk of landing face-down in the sand. The knee-pads and helmet are a good idea.

I am more scared of blacking out doing apnea walking than doing dynamic in the pool with a buddy. In the pool I am unlikely to get hurt, but on a hard surface there is the risk of impact between face and floor.

Once, when I was about 13, I was alone in a school playground, and I fell and landed on my back on the tarmac. It was not even a fall from a height, just from a standing position, but my head hit the ground with terrible force. I have no idea if I was knocked out, or for how long. I saw a flash of white light on a black background, and then found myself lying on the ground, in so much pain that I thought I had broken my back. I soon realised that I could move my legs, so it couldn't be that bad, and then I just about managed to get up and went back indoors, still in a lot of pain but pretending that nothing had happened. I didn't want to admit to having a stupid clumsy accident, and get laughed at.

That was not an apnea-related accident, but still it shows just how serious these things can be.

[Sacarias]

What about nose clips? Is there any risk in using them during a solo, dry static?

[trux]

Originally Posted by Sacarias

What about nose clips? Is there any risk in using them during a solo, dry static?

Well, I'd tell doing it without is certainly slightly safer, but first of all I see no reason for using a nose clip. Why do you do that? Closing your epiglottis is rather automatic when doing apnea, and quite sufficient to avoid additional inhalation.

[trux]

When I was searching different materials about hypoxia and hypercapnia, I also found many articles speaking about deadly teenage choking games. I do not remember doing or seeing anything similar when I was a kid, but according to the sources this type of games is very common worldwide, and a quite frequent reason of children / teenage deaths. Check out for example these links:
Choking game - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hyperventilation - A Deadly Game
Choking Game Education: Deadly Games Children Play: Awareness, Family Help, Statistics, Victims
or more in Google

I mention it because the mechanism of the blackout is very similar to the one at apnea - it is also caused by brain hypoxia, although not due to the general blood hypoxemia, but rather due to the hyperventilation and subsequent hypocapnia. So if there are numerous deaths due to hyperventilation games among the teens, it is very likely you can die in similar way when training dry apnea.

So the advices mentioned above are definitely good to follow. Also laying on the back may not be the best position for the case you vomit or "swallow" your tongue in unconsciousness. Half sitting, or laying on your side may be safer. When sitting or standing, putting a lot of pillows around you may be also wise thing to do.

[trux]

Another tip: generally, when training alone - regardless if it is dynamic or static, dry or wet, it is always safer training hypercapnic exercises than hypoxic ones - the risk of samba or blackout is much lower than when going into hypoxia due to prolonged apnea. And as already mentioned in another thread, there are many exercises that can highly increase your anaerobic performance without doing hypoxic exercises or apnea at all (it was mentioned by Old Dirty Diver who quoted Patrick Musimu on his website, who claimed training very little static or dynamic, dry or wet apnea - I believe it was in the "muscle mass" thread).

[joe123321]

Originally Posted by demasoni

Just my two cents here:

Collapsing due to a blackout while apneawalking on grass can still hurt and inflict damage, I've done it.

If at all possible apneawalk on the beach or some kind of sandy, softer surface. Either that or wear knee pads and a helmet - I'm serious!

Hehe, I can just picture someone just walking in the grass at a park with knee pads and a helmet saftey does have its drawbacks

[demasoni]

Originally Posted by trux

Well, I'd tell doing it without is certainly slightly safer, but first of all I see no reason for using a nose clip. Why do you do that? Closing your epiglottis is rather automatic when doing apnea, and quite sufficient to avoid additional inhalation.

I use a Paradisia while apneawalking because I find that when contractions become difficult, eventually air exits my nose and/or I inhale through my nose involuntary even though I can continue walking.

Oh yeah, and walking with a helmet and knee pads with a noseclip on will look pretty hilarious!

[trux]

Originally Posted by demasoni

I use a Paradisia while apneawalking because I find that when contractions become difficult, eventually air exits my nose and/or I inhale through my nose involuntary even though I can continue walking.

Oh yeah, and walking with a helmet and knee pads with a noseclip on will look pretty hilarious!

Hmm, well, I wonder how much better is walking with the huge Paradisia on your nose . And yes, I imagine the probability of breaking your nose or kicking off your teeth with it is higher. If you think you cannot hold your breath without it, why don't you use plain and simple decent swimming nose clip?

[naiad]

Originally Posted by trux

I mention it because the mechanism of the blackout is very similar to the one at apnea - it is also caused by brain hypoxia, although not due to the general blood hypoxemia, but rather due to the hyperventilation and subsequent hypocapnia. So if there are numerous deaths due to hyperventilation games among the teens, it is very likely you can die in similar way when training dry apnea.

I don't know all the specific risks of various types of hypoxia, but there are some which are associated with 'choking games' and autoerotic asphyxiation which are unlikely to happen during breath-holding. These are: cardiac arrest due to compression of the carotid artery, rupture of the carotid artery or other major vessels resulting in internal bleeding, losing consciousness with something tied around the neck or over the head.

Certainly the risk of head injury by falling over is very serious, and not a joke. A hard blow to the head can cause bleeding into the brain. When I had the accident mentioned above, I had a splitting headache the next day, and was very scared that I had done some serious damage.

When someone falls over in normal circumstances (trip, slip, falling off a chair), their normal reflex is to fall forward and put their hands out. This usually reduces the damage. When someone falls over backwards or blacks out in a standing position, they will keel over like a falling tree and probably bash their head or face on the ground.

I wouldn't be able to face the embarassment of going to the park with knee-pads and a helmet though.

About using a nose clip, I wouldn't do it. During and after a blackout, the breathing reflex may not be very strong, and it may also be possible to fall in a position where the mouth is closed.

[demasoni]

Originally Posted by trux

Hmm, well, I wonder how much better is walking with the huge Paradisia on your nose . And yes, I imagine the probability of breaking your nose or kicking off your teeth with it is higher. If you think you cannot hold your breath without it, why don't you use plain and simple decent swimming nose clip?

I've tried regular noseclips, but they don't pinch my nose with enough force and the Paradisia works well because of the locking mechanism.

It seems the more we talk about dry apnea safety, the more I'm turned off by it due to probable injury.

One could do dry apnea more safely by only holding their breath until the first contraction, but I'm not sure how useful that would be in improving performance.

I'm wondering if anyone practices dry apnea in the gym and what their experiences are with apnea on a stationary bike, stairmaster, the leg press weight machine or something similar?

[naiad]

Originally Posted by demasoni

It seems the more we talk about dry apnea safety, the more I'm turned off by it due to probable injury.

I have been doing dry apnea alone for over 3 years now (not continuously! ) with no major accidents (touch wood!) but this is almost all dry static, not walking or gym. I almost always do dry statics lying down on a soft surface. I don't use a nose clip.

Although I have had a few blackouts/LMCs doing dry static, this has never resulted in injury.

I have been put off apnea walking and gym work, except for short distances and hypercapnic training, because of the possible risks. A head injury caused by falling could have as serious consequences as blacking out alone in the pool.

[trux]

There are risks everywhere. It is all about minimizing them. So if you follow the advices from this thread, you can already eliminate or reduce some of them. As I already wrote, as long as you train alone, it may be safer doing hypercapnic, anaerobic, or Fartlek (mix of aerobic and anaerobic) exercises, and avoiding pure hypoxic and especially max exercises.